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If I Control a Spear Cretin on my field and 1 more Spear Cretin in the grave.., can I keep summoning them each time Spear Cretin's Effect is Triggered? i.e. Spear 1 summons Spear 2 in Face-Down and Spear 2 Summons Spear 1 in Face-Down!

Also, if my opponent has no monsters in his graveyard.., then can I special summon a monster from my graveyard for Spear Cretin's Effect?

1) yes, but doing so multiple times a turn without reason would be considered stalling.

2) yes you are allowed to special summon with spear cretin even if your opponent can't. Note that the rules for the shallow grave differ though..

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Ho Ho Ho! I'm coming to town! Better not be naughty and better be nice!

Shallow Grave is a Choice to Activate (put face-up on the field).  Spear Cretin is a FLIP: Status.

Note that the rulings for Spear Cretin are Similar to the MJ Vs Protector of the Sanctuary

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1730714:

1) yes, but doing so multiple times a turn without reason would be considered stalling.

The "Spear Cretin" loop is a legitimate form of stalling and will not result in a penalty, if it is being used as a method to protect your life points.

I fail to see how you could "repeat" this loop without reason, since the only way I can imagine this occuring would be in a senario involving "King Tiger Wanghu" and "All-Out-Attacks" (and even then I am uncertain whether this combo will work).

Even in this situation, the loop would be considered legal providing it provides some purpose (such as when combined with "Card of Safe Return").

The "Spear Cretin" Player would simply demonstrate the loop once, and then announce how many times they would repeat the loop, as per the Tournament Policy Documents (A-16: Game Loops).

Please do not confuse Stalling with Stalling for Time;

Stalling by way of card effects (and stall based decks including Self Destruct Button) are perfectly legal, whereas Stalling for Time is considered cheating.

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Thanx for letting me know about the legality of the loop. My Opponent kinda left the duel in the middle while we were playing saying that such a loop was not allowed. there was no king tiger wanghu etc.., we were playing in an Online Duel System(KCVDS).

1194457:

1730714:

1) yes, but doing so multiple times a turn without reason would be considered stalling.

The "Spear Cretin" loop is a legitimate form of stalling and will not result in a penalty, if it is being used as a method to protect your life points.

I fail to see how you could "repeat" this loop without reason, since the only way I can imagine this occuring would be in a senario involving "King Tiger Wanghu" and "All-Out-Attacks" (and even then I am uncertain whether this combo will work).

Even in this situation, the loop would be considered legal providing it provides some purpose (such as when combined with "Card of Safe Return").

The "Spear Cretin" Player would simply demonstrate the loop once, and then announce how many times they would repeat the loop, as per the Tournament Policy Documents (A-16: Game Loops).

Please do not confuse Stalling with Stalling for Time;

Stalling by way of card effects (and stall based decks including Self Destruct Button) are perfectly legal, whereas Stalling for Time is considered cheating.

referring to something that would have to keep attacking your monsters, like ultimate tyranno. But i wasn't clear about that, my apologies.

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Ho Ho Ho! I'm coming to town! Better not be naughty and better be nice!

In the case of a "Spear Cretin" loop vs. "Ultimate Tyranno", we have a situation in which it would be unfair to force the "Spear Cretin" player to choose another monster in order to break the loop, as doing so would be to their detriment.

While self-perpetuating loops (eg. Jinzo + Amplifier vs. Skill Drain) are illegal since there is no way to break them once established, in this situation the loop is player-controlled, and as such, is perfectly legal since the controller of "Spear Cretin" could, at any time choose to summon a different monster and break the loop.

This is similar to another thread currently being debated (Asura Priest + Honest vs. Colossal Fighter).

The best answer we currently have is to consider the duel a Draw since to do otherwise would be to show favortism towards one player or another.

I believe we are currently awaiting a response from Alix Charsky (sp) as to how to proceed in such a manner.

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unless something is forced to attack every monster on the field ( ultimate tyranno), then bring spear cretin back face down is not a loop. it will end when a player runs out of attack monsters. unless other cards are introduced, none of these examples are uncontrolled infinite loops. they are controlled

in regards to the spear cretin vs. ultimate tyranno loop.  the player summoning spear cretin face down is in control of the loop. either they can summon in attack position, summon nothing at all, or stall the game for no reason and recieve the appropriate penalty.  knowingly summoning spear cretin face down is causing a controlled infinite loop that serves no purpose other than stalling the game. this is clearly a violation.

if you search ,. there are already a couple of very detailed threads on the subject.

in regards to the colossol fighter vs. asura priest/honest. the player continously attacking colossol fighter is in control of the loop ( if there isn't another monster in the graveyard) and thus is stalling the game for no purpose.  if there is another warrior able to be summoned then (edit)the answer givin by alex, is asura is controlling the loop and must choose a different action

http://entertainment.upperdeck.com/COMMUNITY/forums/2/1480046/ShowThread.aspx#1480046

Alex Charsky:

Hello,

The person that is attacking is controlling this loop.

Ask the person that's attacking how many times they wish to do the loop. Then ask the defending player if they want to stop the loop (choose a different warrior) earlier then the number of times the attacker wants to go. If the defending player wants to stop earlier then the number of times the attacker wants the loop to continue, you fast forward to the point in time where the defending player wants to stop. The play then continues from that point, with the defending player choosing a different action to perform.

If the defending player wants to always do the same thing after the attack, then the loop forwards to the number of iterations that the attacker wants to do. After that point, the attacker must perform a different game action.

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With each kill, I grow wiser, with added wisdom, I grow stronger...

Yugioh! TCG Rules Knowledge Level 1
Player Management: Level 1

Fyi...   The pole position rulings do not support the Asura Priest/Colossal Fighter argument because that loop is caused by both players decisions, including the ability to return Colossal in either attack or def position.  The Pole position rulings are looking for a card, not a decision that causes the infinite loop, and then removes/cancels that card.  (or did you have another ruling in mind?)

As best I can tell, there are no rules on loops caused by both players actions, and that is material for either Alex, (As KJ and Robert said), Curtis or future tournament policies.

Enjoy the game 

i agree...if the controller has another warrior in the graveyard, it is both players causing the loop...that is definately a ruling for alex. i will edit accordingly.

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With each kill, I grow wiser, with added wisdom, I grow stronger...

Yugioh! TCG Rules Knowledge Level 1
Player Management: Level 1

because my word means sooo much, I don't think the player should have summoned asura priest in the first place. summoning asura priest seems to kick off this chain. and the turn player is more in control than their opponent.

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I am a monument to all your sins:
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gamestate doesn't look to see if something might cause a loop.  it will recognize a loop when it happens.  summoning asura priest does not cause a loop.  if anything attacking with asura or playing honest, but as the loop has yet to happen until a repeat of the same event accures, there is no loop playing either. a player cannot do  something that will immediately cause a loop. as stated, if there is no other warriors summonable by colossol fighter, then a continous attack with asura is causing a loop. asura attack is optional, therefore controllable. if there is a summonable warrior for colossal , then this could go either way. either asura has to stop attacking or a different monster has to be summoned....

a nice little combo would be to have final attack orders and no other warriors in the graveyard...then asura/honest could keep attacking colossal fighter for game.

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With each kill, I grow wiser, with added wisdom, I grow stronger...

Yugioh! TCG Rules Knowledge Level 1
Player Management: Level 1

For those who are wont to argue... The Loop Illusion suggested (Asura + Honest + FAO vs. Colossal Fighter) is perfectly legal, as defined under A-16 Game Loops.

The TP must demonstrate the loop once, after which they must designate the number of times in which they will repeat the loop.

In this situation, the TP simply has to say - 20x, 100x, or any other number which would guarantee that the TP will reduce their opponents LP to 0 as a result of battle.

Since this doesnt actually take up any extra time (since each of the successive loops are simply assumed to occur, without need for either player to play out each individual loop) this is hardly considered "Stalling" (in the negative sense).

Controlled Loops (those which a player has control over, such as the above loop) are always legal (to my knowledge), even in the event that this results in a stalemate due to choices made by one (or both) player's.

Uncontrollable loops on the other hand, are forbidden. Most of the rulings relating to "Pole Position" involve the creation of one (or more) uncontrollable loops.

The two should not be confused.

Spear Cretin (x2) + King Tiger Wanghu + All-Out Attacks is a Controlled Loop (providing they have at least one other monster in their graveyard besides Spear Cretin), even in the event that performing the loop serves no purpose.

With that being said, performing a Controlled Loop without serving any purpose may consitute "Stalling for Time" which could result in a penalty for Unsportsman Conduct.

Adding "Card of Safe Return" to the mix however, changes this loop from one which serves no purpose to one with a definate goal (to draw through ones deck).

Such a use of a Controlled Loop is perfectly legal, and does not constitute "Stalling for Time".

In fact, many such loops are known to exist. Some of the most famous include:

• Manticore of Darkness x2  + Card of Safe Return and
• Gearfried the Iron Knight + Royal Magical Library + Butterfly Dagger Elma.

These loops are both legal (at least in the Traditional Format). Since the above loop follows all the same dynamics as the above loops, I see no reason why this loop would not be considered legal either.

My only question on this matter is what should the outcome be in the following senario:

• Player A has 1 monster in their graveyard (Spear Cretin) and one face-down Monster (also a Spear Cretin).
• Player B summons "Ultimate Tyranno", and during their Battle Phase, attacks Player A's face-down monster.

Should Player A:

• Recieve a penalty for stalling should they continuously summon their monster(s) in face-down Defense Position
• Be allowed to continue this loop (since to do otherwise would be to their detriment), in which case the game should be called a DRAW.
• Be forced to summon their second "Spear Cretin" in Attack Position, in which case the loop will be ended.

This is a tricky situation... Since nobody wants to be on the losing end of a combo/loop, and I can easily justify a ruling for any of the three outcomes.

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1194457:

Controlled Loops (those which a player has control over, such as the above loop) are always legal (to my knowledge), even in the event that this results in a stalemate due to choices made by one (or both) player's.

not always legal. more accurately , controlled loops that serve a purpose.

UDE FAQ: Treeborn Frog:

If "King Tiger Wanghu" is on the field when "Treeborn Frog" is Special Summoned, "Treeborn Frog" will be destroyed, but can be Special Summoned again with its effect during the same Standby Phase. Doing so without purpose is considered stalling and is a violation of Tournament Policy.

1194457:

Uncontrollable loops on the other hand, are forbidden. Most of the rulings relating to "Pole Position" involve the creation of one (or more) uncontrollable loops.

The two should not be confused.

Spear Cretin (x2) + King Tiger Wanghu is a Controlled Loop (providing they have at least one other monster in their graveyard besides Spear Cretin), even in the event that performing the loop serves no purpose.

unless there is something constantely ( final attack orders) flipping cretin face up then this is not a loop....

if there is, then activating cretin effect with no other purpose ( as you state, cosr, etc) is stalling and violation of policy

1194457:

With that being said, performing a Controlled Loop without serving any purpose may consitute "Stalling for Time" which could result in a penalty for Unsportsman Conduct.

correct

1194457:

My only question on this matter is what should the outcome be in the following senario:

• Player A has 1 monster in their graveyard (Spear Cretin) and one face-down Monster (also a Spear Cretin).
• Player B summons "Ultimate Tyranno", and during their Battle Phase, attacks Player A's face-down monster.

Should Player A:

• Recieve a penalty for stalling should they continuously summon their monster(s) in face-down Defense Position

this is the correct answer.  player a has the option of summoning cretin face up, not summoning at all, or stalling and violating policy. this is the exact same situation as wangu vs. treeborn

stalling time to protect your life points (whether it be with controlled loop or slow playing) is a violation of policy.

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With each kill, I grow wiser, with added wisdom, I grow stronger...

Yugioh! TCG Rules Knowledge Level 1
Player Management: Level 1

Oops, forgot to include "All-Out Attacks" in the Spear Cretin/King Tiger loop.

With that being said.... Outside of the situation involving "Ultimate Tyranno" (or a similar monster), a "Spear Cretin" loop in which you continuously summon your other "Spear Cretin" whenever your on-field "Spear Cretin" is attacked, is a perfectly legitimate method of protecting ones lifepoints while setting up your own victory condition, since it makes victory via Battle a difficult prospect for your opponent.

It is hardly what I consider stalling since it doesn't slow the game any more than "Gravity Bind", "Level Limit Area B" or "Messenger of Peace" do... The game progresses, and forces your opponent to find removal for your on-field "Spear Cretin" or resort to alternate means of victory (besides battle).

I used to use this combo prior to NoC becoming the removal card of choice, and had just started experiementing with it again in combination with Kuraz.

However, the current metagame's over-reliance on monster effects as a source of removal makes it too risky to run "Spear Cretin" in the current format, even if you discount the fact that Synchro Monsters make it almost suicidal.

 

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