Upper Deck Entertainment Forums

I was at a tourney tonight  and one of the players had only 1 Card in her deck and 6 cards in her hand

When she drew the last card in her deck it was Sword of Deep-Seated  when she ended her turn she discard it  witch return it to the top of her deck

She keep doing this for a grand total of 9 Turns   the other cards in her hands were high level monsters

I told the Head   Judge that is i had been judge I would had called it Slow Play  another Judge say it was Cheating  and another say she can do it as long as she does it in a timly Matter 

I am wandering who was right on the rulling

---

Leader and fonder of Team Mythology
Level 1 Yu-Gi-Oh! Rule,T.O., Player Management

As long as she is not being overly long in her turn, she can continue to do it as many times as she likes, provided the opponent does not find a way to stop her (Cold Wave / Prohibition / Trap Dustshoot + Conscription, Book of Eclipse, etc).

If she is taking 2 + Minutes every turn to make that single move, then yes, Slow Play penalties do apply, but we cannot force a player to stop performing a Legal Loop.  It is up to the opponent and to find a way to stop the player from using the effect of her card or win by other means.

---

107-744-616
Circle of Tragedy Duels
YGORK2, PM1, TO1
UDE May Use My Card Ideas At Will!
EVERYTHING I SAY IS PERSONAL OPINION
Prepare for the coming Global Crisis

Hmm.  Lets look at the three terms you used.

What is Slow Play?  Slow Play is when a player uses more than a reasonable amount of time to make a move, usually one that will in one way or another progress the game state.  In this case, the player has drawn his card, contemplated her actions, which I assume was in a timely manner, and ended her turn.  During the end of her turn, she had too many cards in Hand and chose to discard her "Sword of the Deep-Seated".  At this point, an effect happens which causes the card that is sent to the Graveyard to be placed back on top of the owner's Deck.  Strategy or not, this act is causing the player not to lose, which is not against the rules.

What is Cheating?  Cheating is the act of doing something against the rules to gain an unfair advantage.  Cheating will usually, if not always, be intentional.  In the above situation is the player doing anything that is against the rules?  Is she doing something which will give her an unfair advantage?  I do not see anything listed here that fits that description.

What is stalling?  Stalling is a form of cheating.  It is the act of intentionally performing actions in an attempt to buy time, so time runs out and gain an unfair advantage.  This will usually happen once a player is in a comfortable position to come out ahead in the match as long as the current game state remains the same from that point until the end of match.  I also do not see the player intentionally stalling to gain an advantage in the match.  Eventually the opponent will be able to bring their Life Points down to zero or the opponent will Deck Out, which is a Win / Loss Condition and not against the rules.

So I ask you this...

What do you think is the correct ruling / penalty (if any) for the above scenario?

---

Franklin Debrito
Player Management Lv4 / Yu-Gi-Oh! Lv3
VS System Lv1 / Specialist Lv2
World of Warcraft Lv1 / Tournament Organizer Lv1
UD Forums Moderator

Slow play, or stalling, really only comes into effect when a player takes an excessive amount of time to make a move.  As long as she was making legal moves in a reasonable amount of time, then this would not fall under either of those categories.

Procedural Error-Slow Play is unintentional, and is defined as follows:

Appendix P Tournament Penalty Guidelines:

P-18 Procedural Error—Slow Play (Penalty: Warning)
This penalty is appropriate when a player unintentionally causes a minor delay of the game. Players are responsible for playing at an efficient pace regardless of the complexity of the situation in the game or the number of decisions that have to be made.
Examples:
• A player is excessively slow while deciding to keep her initial hand in a World of Warcraft TCG game.
• A player takes more than the three allowed minutes to access his side deck in a Yu-Gi-Oh! TCG match.
• A player is excessively slow while considering attacks in a Vs. System TCG game.

While stalling is intentional and falls under Unsporting Conduct-Cheating.

Appendix P Tournament Penalty Guidelines:

P-33 Unsporting Conduct—Cheating (Penalty: Disqualification without Prize)
Cheating is the highest display of unsporting conduct a player can exhibit during a tournament. Cheating includes, but is not limited to, intentionally misrepresenting the game state, rules, or policies; reporting inaccurate information to tournament officials; and bribery. A statement must be sent to the address given at the beginning of this document outlining the incident leading to this penalty.
Examples:
• A player offers booster packs to her opponent in exchange for conceding the final round.
• A player purposely draws an extra card and attempts to conceal it.
• A player intentionally reports to a tournament official that he won a round after losing the round.
• In a World of Warcraft TCG game, a player intentionally marks four of her key ability cards so that she can predict when they will be drawn.
• A player lies to tournament officials.
• A player who won the first game of the match purposely plays slowly in order to stall for time and wait for the round to end.
• A player in the World of Warcraft TCG deliberately switches a face-down resource with a card in her hand.
• A player in the Yu-Gi-Oh! TCG pre-sets his deck while side decking and does not sufficiently randomize his deck before presenting it to his opponent.

---

Andy Danielson
World of Warcraft Rules Knowledge level 1
Player Management level 1

At SJC Seattle, I played against a Clock Tower deck ( he also played 3 copies of prohibition, 2 solemn judgement and 2 dark bribe - He got a Prohibition out turn 1 and called Heavy Storm), and the player played Outstanding Dog Marron, which when it is sent to the grave, it is returned to the deck and the deck then shuffled.  Same thing as the card you are talking about.

I had no problem with that - he won game 1 and after I sided in, he lost games 2 & 3.  Making use of a card that is legal to play is a strategy.  That is like playing a Self-Destruct Button deck - a perfectly legal deck (and by the way the one  I played for fun Day 1 of the SJC and went 5-4.  I never noticed, but friends tell me that judges were frequently passing my back and pausing to see that all was well or if I was stalling.  I had 1 match go 11 games before I won =}

---

YGO Rules Lvl 1
Player Management Lvl 1
TO lvl 1
----------------------
That which does not kill me, just royally pisses me off!

i would call this a legal move as long as the player making it does not take much time after the first time desiding what to do.

---

Lvl 1 judge
Lvl 1 t/o
Lvl 1 p/m
Lvl 1 demo

I'm a little concerned that the judges in your area don't seem to be reading/comprehending the Penalty Guidelines...

---

Julia Hedberg

Regular Jane
I have some certification levels, too.

I don't think you meant that nasty innuendo.  Certainly, I've seen no complaints from the most recent Jump.  If I have a player who consistently goes to end of match, I will have my floor judges visit his table regularly, just in case...

And so what are we doing to teach the penalty guidelines?  Most level 1 judges are only players or work at the local level.  At regionals and above, their education is advanced as to "just what is "xxxxxx.""    In the meantime, these boards are an excellent training tool for "developing" judges, and we don't want to discourage them from airing their viewpoint, and adjusting it through healthy discussion.    I've certainly learned from the mistakes I've posted.

Back to point, maybe a question bank of sample issues would be a great training tool, but it might also compromise the current level 2 tests.

Enjoy the game

I'm making a nasty innuendo, or did you mean someone else?

I don't think you meant me, since I am not making any innuendo at all - what I meant is exactly what I said.

I am concerned that some judges do not seem to be reading or understanding the penalty documents. I am VERY concerned, because if a judge doesn't or cannot read and understand these, they are sorely hampered in their ability to judge.

---

Julia Hedberg

Regular Jane
I have some certification levels, too.

Thank you all for leting us know this

---

Leader and fonder of Team Mythology
Level 1 Yu-Gi-Oh! Rule,T.O., Player Management

I'm afraid what we're looking at here with previous posts is something that is fairly typical of newer judges, the tendancy to under value the penalty guidelines while focusing on learning the rules until such time as they wish to take the PM2 test.

It's important that the HJ of any tournament have a pretty good idea of the abilities (or lack of them) of the staff they're working with and use that tournament as a means of training. It also helps for the HJ to come prepared with some Penalty Guideline - minis (many of you may carry one or have seen other judges carry one) Often times the HJ may need to instruct newer judges on how to write a penalty, a HJ should also make newer judges know that if they have any question on the appropriate penalty to consult their team lead or the HJ.

One of the hard lessons I've learned though judging is assuming that the rest of the crew is up to date and well versed will get my crew into trouble. While we don't expect every judge to be on a high level of understanding, it's the job of more experienced judges to help educate and train them to get there.

---

Yu-Gi-Oh! RK3
PM L3
TO L1
Specialist L1

When I'm head judging and I have a floor judge that I do not know well I always try to make time to get to know them and their level of skill. Typically this starts with me getting a feel for their level of experience and then through out the day asking for ruling scenarios they were called to or presenting them scenarios and asking how they would handle it.

If I find that they have more experience or knowledge then I try to present more challenging scenarios than I would someone that does not have much experience. For newer judges the best scenarios I've found are 'what penalty if any' type scenarios and some of them have come almost straight from these forums.

---

WoW RK2
VS RK2
YGO RK2
PM LV2
Specialist LV2 (formerly demo team)
TO LV1

284102:

When I'm head judging and I have a floor judge that I do not know well I always try to make time to get to know them and their level of skill. Typically this starts with me getting a feel for their level of experience and then through out the day asking for ruling scenarios they were called to or presenting them scenarios and asking how they would handle it.

If I find that they have more experience or knowledge then I try to present more challenging scenarios than I would someone that does not have much experience. For newer judges the best scenarios I've found are 'what penalty if any' type scenarios and some of them have come almost straight from these forums.

Yeah, I remember how you used to do that kind of stuff with me. It does help, I can vouch for that.  I know if I got back into judging, that's what I'd prefer since I've been out for awhile.

I think what everyone is trying to basically say is, new judges have a tendancy to put so much focus on rules knowledge, they often skimp on learning penalty knowledge. What's important, is that if you're the head judge, you assess the strenghts and weaknesses of each judge working with you. Being Head Judge doesn't mean just handling appeals, it also means assisting and more importantly, teaching the rest of your judge staff. It means more then just correcting a bad ruling, it means working with that judge to determine why the ruling was made to begin with, and then doing what you can to correct whatever the problem was. While it's important that a floor judge has both knowledge of rules and penalties, most judges, especially new ones are more worried about not knowing a card effect then they are not knowing whether to give a game loss or a warning. This is why it's that much more important that Head Judges take the time to review penalties with their judge staff on a weekly basis.

---

Yu-Gi-Oh Rules Lvl-1
Player Management Lvl-1
Tournament Organization Lvl-1
Bandai Naruto Meijin
Bandai DBZ meijin
Pokemon Tournament Organizer